Randino Treviani said:
And yet is bright enough at ten to disassemble the batmobile after somehow disabling the alarms that should go off. He's honestly likely better than Cassandra was to begin with in every stat besides martial.
Oh, he is. He is also about 6 years older than she was and wouldn't have the same coop advantages.
His starting position is much weaker and we have fewer opportunities to compound it, and while dealing with Cassandra's problems did close the gap a bit, it's still a massive difference
Randino Treviani said:
This is an opinion, not a statement of fact. Jason is every bit is much a prodigy of the rest of the bat kids. He still became an impressive Robin, and that was with Bruce fighting his natural inclinations to try and force him to follow his code. Besides, various characters have diverged from there original states over the 8 years the quest has been active. Without a single action on our part, the fates of characters like Victor Freiz, Selina Kyle, and Killer Kroc have changed significantly, so don't talk shit about a character who has had the entirety of his childhood to develop in a different direction.
If you are using diverting personalities as an argument then we have no reason to assume that anyone is in any way similar to how they are supposed to be. Hell, if Jason went through a sufficiently different childhood or events then he might have been adopted, or have a better relationship with his parents, or literally anything else - up to and including his availability for adoption in the first place. A more well-socialized/less traumatized/damaged Jason Todd would go through significant enough changes to not be in such a position that he would want to go with us in the first place (namely, having a wider supporting net that prevented him from being as emotionally stunted)
This is a poor argument in that while such a scenario is indeed possible, it is unlikely. Unless proven otherwise we should always assume that characters are as we know them, otherwise we are just wasting meta knowledge.
Jason is a mean, brutal and vindictive kid and is kind of an asshole besides. I can't really see him having good coops with any unit that he could reasonably team up on Learning developmental actions. Martial and Intrigue would work for sure though.
Also, Selina's personality didn't really change. I'd argue that Croc's didn't too much either but that is debatable. We also have no reason to assume that Freeze's personality diverged either.
Jason was also an inferior Robin to both Tim and Dick, but that's not really the point since child actions can twist it one way or the other (Not as much for Jason since he is older than preferable. More on that later)
Randino Treviani said:
He's not in this? King is adjusting the ages. It's highly unlikely that king will have him older than recently turning 13 by the time Bruce adopts him, which won't be until a turn after Dick leaves, so no sooner than turn 32. At minimum he'll be half a year younger at worst, with over a year far more likely.
He is stated to be older than Cassandra. You can ask the QM yourself if you want or alternatively just look it up since he posted about it on multiple occasions. Basically, Cassandra (and Stephanie) was aged up a bit from being slightly younger than Tim Drake to being slightly younger than Jason since king crimson wanted the entire bat family to be of two years within each other (Damian doesn't exist). Dick is about 15-16, Jason is about 13-14 (but older than Cassandra) and Tim is 11-12. It should also be noted that by the time we meet Jason (at least 3-4 turns) he will be 14-15.
Randino Treviani said:
No, they wouldn't. When you say not special, you mean "doesn't have some super power or unnatural ability gained through years of deliberate child abuse or a traumatic incident, which Bane may well provide, and we are slowly becoming perfectly capable of granting to him ourselves. Jason is a Prodigy. He's outshined because the rest of the bat kids actually agree with Bruce's morals, allowing a more productive work relationship with him than Jason had, but Lex's own lack of moral hang ups and need to waste turns condition Jason towards good would actually mean Jason would grow more quickly than he did with Bruce.
Okay, so I will explain this point in further detail.
If we pick a child that is 8 years old and has their stats be below 5, and we pick Jason who is 6 years older and has his stats all between roughly 5-15 or so, do you think that the 8 year old with 32 child actions won't absolutely wipe the floor with Jason who only has 4-8 by the time they both turn 16?
This is obviously an extreme example, but ultimately if we pick an average 11-12-year-old who has decent to good coops we can make them better than Jason at the same age, either through raw stats or being more adjusted to our needs.
We don't need to adopt a super prodigy (which Jason certainly isn't when compared to the dime-a-dozen geniuses all around, but that's a moot point) since we can just manufacture one with consistent effort. What we do need is an edge, a unique aptitude that is either difficult or impossible to otherwise acquire (Cassandra's relationship with Lex, her body reading, and her unique adaptability do to a lack of a developed core personality, or alternatively Jinx's magic ot Raven's unique heritage) which Jason just plain doesn't have.
Also, Jason is outshined because he isn't as smart as Tim and isn't as charismatic as Dick first and foremost. He is viewed with distrust for his brutality but it isn't the source of his inferiority complex towards Dick or Tim (and wouldn't be for Cassandra either, obviously). He would get more freedom to be brutal, true, but less than just being an otherwise affiliated ward or even being adopted by Mercy. Having a brutal mercenary Luthor would also reflect poorly on the entire family, so even from your perspective that's a disadvantage.
Realistically we are better off starting much younger than Jason. I am really not seeing any argument to the contrary. Jason is fine to pick up due to his attitude being advantageous for several things, but there are no advantages here when compared to just making him our ward (except for having a higher coop score with Lex potentially, but given the fact that Lex doesn't take a whole lot of Intrigue actions that isn't much of an advantage either)
Randino Treviani said:
Ignoring the likely incorrect assumption of Jason's age. If we, the voters, approach this as Lex having another child who he doesn't intend to be heir, and is focusing on making a specialist, than we can head off any competition. Focused development will allow for Jason to do well enough to head off an inferiority complex.
Unless you want to make Jason a diplomat or researcher of some kind, being adopted by Lex will not make him the kind of specialist that you are thinking of. In that sense, he is better off being handed to Mercy's care (though being a ward of the company would be better than even that)
Randino Treviani said:
Your also just completely ignoring Cassandra's own intelligence and ability to assess the situation and come to the conclusion that it's better to ingratiate Jason to herself and manipulate him into an underling like role, or respond in other ways.
Being adopted into the family completely flips that dynamic on its head.
I don't know if you remember, but you yourself wanted to adopt Jinx into the family since she is number one in your heart (or something along those lines) and king crimson specifically told you that it would massively change their dynamics in precisely this way - and that's with someone who was already talked talked into being Cassandra's subordinate
Becoming a Luthor would mark Jason as Cassandra's equal and not subordinate, and especially with him being older than her, that would carry lots of issues (Trust issues between Cass and Lex, Cassandra bullying Jason since he is competition etc)
Randino Treviani said:
Meanwhile you make this argument while only preferring particularly unique children who can do things Cassandra Never can and invoke jealousy by the presences of abilities she can't match easily. I think we could work around that, but she is far more likely to respond negatively to someone unique in the way Raven is being adopted than a simple prodigy.
This is a bit of a reach. Cassandra wouldn't care about a sibling being capable of magic dor example since isn't something that she focuses on or cares about. If they could outdo her in martial arts or even "merely" science, on the other hand, it would probably hurt her pride quite a bit.
I will be honest and just say that your position is coming across as incredibly biased from my perspective. I legitimately feel like you have this image of Jason Todd as Lex's kid and are reverse-engineering reasons for it to happen. I am trying to take your arguments seriously but I still feel like your biases are playing here pretty majorly.
Abyssal_light said:
My biggest worry about involving Waller is more her going overboard and costing us any gains we could make from the situation. I don't think she is foolish enough to truly make an enemy of lex by seizing his assets .
Amanda Waller's POV after turn 26 indicates that she thinks that we are gaining too much power. If we involve her she will attempt to circumvent us the entire way to limit our influence.